Crystallizer of Dreams

How does this work with Double, Double?

Let's say I play an event and attach it (both Double, Double and Crystallizer of Dreams are "after" the event so afaik, I get to choose). I then activate Double, Double and play the event as if it were in my hand. The rules say

Any time an event card is played, its effects are resolved and it is then placed in its owner's discard pile.

This leads me to these questions:

  • Can I commit the event from beneath crystallizer to its own (Double, Double-)play action since it is not really in my hand, I am only playing it as if it were?
  • Does the event get discarded from beneath crystallizer (Rules: The game state is considered to be altered throughout the duration of the indicated ability or action, from its initiation (including the paying of its costs, attacks of opportunity, etc) through the resolution of each aspect of its effect, and up until its completion.). One aspect of playing an event is, after all, discarding the card IMO
  • Can I then reattach it by using the ability on crystallizer?

I personally think no - yes - yes…what about you?

Leilasaida · 3
I am no rules expert, but my thought is that Double Double says that the event is played again as if it is in your hand. It cannot be under Crystallizer of Dreams if it's being played. — DjMiniboss · 44
I think no, no, no is correct due to the rules for the phrase "as if...". After the first play you attach it to the crystallize. If you now activate Double, double this event is considered to be in your hand (and not attached to the crystallizer). If you discard the imaginary second event and end the play action you change back to the actual physical game states which means your event is attached to the crystallizer. — Tharzax · 1
The "as if" does not change where the event is. It only allows you to play it while not physicaly in your hand. The problem here is with the undefined state, where the event is while being played . It is not in discard yet (it goes there as the last step), but it must have left your hand, otherwise you could commit it to its own test... So the question is, does the event leave the zone, from which it was initiated (in this case "in play", attached to the crystalyzer)? it will definitely be discarded though and can be attached again. — Adny · 1
The event card will still be attached to the crystallizer since you don't change the cards physically (so it never detached from the crystallizer during double double). But during the reaction of double double, that event you just played is considered to be on your hand (and is during the play action it is virtually not attached to the crystallizer). At the end of the second play action you discard the event virtually and jump back to the physical setup where the event was just attached to the crystallizer. — Tharzax · 1
@Adny I also believe that one big part of the problem is the question of 'where' the event actually is while it is being played. I checked the rules page on events and did not find any information about this. The other big problem is that both reactions trigger at the same point in time. If crystalliser could only happen after Double, Double there would be no issue here IMO. — Leilasaida · 3
@Tharzax I interpreted "play that event" as the actual event itself, not some kind of illusionary copy. Lets say I would to Double, Double Cheap Shot(2). I believe I could return it to my hand even if only one of the two instances suceeded by 3 or more since it would literally be the same event. What makes you think the event is not physically being played again? — Leilasaida · 3
You can find the answer for both questions in the entry for "as if", where it's written "The indicated ability or action is resolved with the altered game state in mind, but the actual game state remains unchanged." and further explanations. — Tharzax · 1
@Leilasaida: Yes, it is the same physical card being played, from where ever it ended (corollary: RfG/Exiled cards cannot be doubled as they are not part of the game anymore). @Tharzax: you interpret the cited rule incorrectly. The game state remains unchanged. The event is never "virtualy not attached". The "as if" only circumvents the rule, that events are played from your hand and lets you play it from wherever. After you choose to play it, it enters the big black void not defined in rules as any other event played from hand. — Adny · 1
Yes, I agree with Adny. — Kryha30 · 10
No, yes, yes. — snacc · 767
@Adny While I share your interpretation of how "as if" works, just a small heads up: in the FAQ for double, double it is stated that you can "absolutely use it on the painted world" which is removed from the game. — Leilasaida · 3
Playing an event constits out of thee steps: 1. Paying costs, 2. resolve effects and 3. discard the event. The Rule for "as if" says "The game state is considered to be altered throughout the duration of the indicated ability or action, from its initiation (including the paying of its costs, attacks of opportunity, etc) through the resolution of each aspect of its effect, and up until its completion.". And while assests are put into play events stay in your hand until they are discarded. — Tharzax · 1
Khopesh of the Abyss

I have a question about using this card effectively. I'm playing as Nathaniel Cho with Bandolier and Boxing Gloves and I think the card is a cool fit. I think the economy is there. I have Emergency Cache on Stick to the Plan and I used Versatile to cheat in a copy of Astounding Revelation to be able to effectively have 10 resources turn 1. Additionally, I'm running Clean Them Out, "I've had worse…", and Stand Together to help keep resources flowing without slowing the game down.

I've considered running Relentless as well since Nathaniel has a tendency to (or at least the ability to) deal overkill damage.

Setup-wise I don't mind waiting until Bandolier comes in. In the absolute worst case scenario this is a 2 will or 2 might commit in an otherwise perfectly functioning deck. In the best case, I kill something and teleport to an aloof an enemy with doom and engage it. Everyone cheers as Nathaniel the Flying Boxer kills a 1 health cultist.

My problem every time I try to run this in a deck, my friends say "I don't want to do the Guardians of the Abyss side quest". What can I do about this?

SorryLaurie · 58
Talk to them and ask why they don't want to play the scenario again and try to find a solution? For example you can offer to buy it with xp like other cards (I think 5 XP would be my first shot for this compared with the brand) — Tharzax · 1
It's hard and require some luck to get the Khopesh if you're doing a blind run at Guardians of the Abyss for the first time, esp. playing with hard/expert difficulty. But the Guardian side quest is really fun and challenging. Your friends are missing out. — liwl0115 · 33
Offer You Cannot Refuse

While this weakness may seem relatively benign, as others have mentioned - 2xp and 0 resources at the start - my recent playthrough as a clue-ver Mystic was completely derailed by this card. It's minimizing to say that you just start with 0 resources - if that was how this card worked it would be a non-issue. The issue is that you can never drop below the required resources if there is a card draw coming. In the second scenario, I once (once!) dropped below 5 resources (to 4) and this was the very next card I drew. Upkeep is "draw a card, gain a resource", so you can't count on the upkeep resource to help. You have to guard against treacheries that lose resources, locations that need resources, etc. Once the second version is in your deck, it's even worse as you don't have enough resources in turn one to avoid an unlucky first upkeep (or to play any "draw" events/items), without a hard mulligan for resource generators. God forbid you get the third one.

As a Mystic, I could not get my set up in place for at least 3 rounds due to needing to hoard resources and play resource generators rather than assets, which essentially locked my player down. All of my early xp had to go to fast (and free!) resource generation instead of upgrading spells, which dramatically changed my build.

As weaknesses go, I feel this is one of the harder hitting, mainly because it requires you to both change your playstyle and change your deck to manage it. Most basic weaknesses slow you down, but few actually require you to build around them like this one does. Best recommendation to manage this one is to get the resources in hand, then lean into card draw effects until it's gone. And if you are a high cost build (like most Mystics), good luck to you.

Time4Tiddy · 198
I'm currently suffering this weakness with Daisy Walker. I'm not sure it's completely derailed me, but it's a harsh weakness, for sure. I've had to adapt my upgrade path completely differently to cope with it. I'm on the second level at the moment! For me it's on the Fun side of Harsh rather than the Unfun side of Harsh :-) — acotgreave · 396
Mystic can use ikiaq to counter this weakness. Note that the upgrades are not basic so she can’t counter them — Django · 4192
Whitton Greene

How is this ally better than Dr. M? While it does not seem fair towards other allies, it is only reasonable to ask this question. So how is Whitton Greene better? Can she, in fact, be better?

Whitton's +1 is conditional, but depending on your deck, the condition doesn't need to be that harsh. Plus she actively works on fulfilling the condition!

While Milan gives you pretty reliably a coin every turn, Whitton does something completely different. She finds your books, she finds your relics, she triggers deck searches, thinning your deck so you can draw other important stuff earlier. All this is very synergical with the cardpool. Milan makes you rich, Whitton makes you stronger and faster.

If you have upgraded the Dream Diary, you want to draw it as soon as you can. Milan doesn't help with that. If you are planning to assemble the Pendant of the Queen, it is Whitton who finds you the pieces. Plus it is reasonable to expect her to trigger an Astounding Revelation or two and give you some money so you don't miss Milan that much.

Whitton's impact only increases with lower player count. But even in larger groups, you can find a way to trigger her enough times to find all the stuff you need.

Picking Milan is rarely a bad choice. But we shouldn't be lazy and do it automatically, because other allies may be just the same help, or even sometimes even bigger.

Trady · 116
She also has that sweet, sweet health soak that most Seeker allies (including Milan) lack. — Time4Tiddy · 198
With Mr. Rook banned from lv. 0, Mandy most likely wants to take her over Mr. M. — liwl0115 · 33
Black Market

Not a review, but yet another rules q:

I'm Wendy with a Deja Vu. I play Black market and reveal my own Burn After Reading. Someone else plays it, exiling it and some card from their hand

Can I use Deja Vu on that copy of Burn? Or no, because I didn't exile it? (I know it's in my Exile , but I technically didn't put it there??)

slyguavas · 39
My read would be that Exile is an effect that removes a card from your deck. A card played with Black Market that is discarded goes to its original owners' discard, so it doesn't alter ownership of the card, and it would still be exiled from your deck and not your teammates. — Maseiken · 1
We also see this on Black Market itself. If a card isn't played, its shuffled into "its owners" deck. Despite being playable by any investigator, the cards are still "owned" by the investigator whose deck supplied them. — Maseiken · 1
While that's a fair way to homerule it if you want, Deja Vu is explicit: "cards you exiled." There is no 'your exile'; it was returned to the collection. — Death by Chocolate · 1164
either you exiled it from your deck (and deja vu works) or you didn't exile it from your deck soooo...its still in your deck. I think the actual resolution is other players can't play exile cards because you can't pay costs using other players components, in this case exiling is a cost using someone else's deck, black market lets you play the card but doesn't let you spend things from other players. — Zerogrim · 248
Neither of the exiles in burn after reading are costs though — NarkasisBroon · 9
I think the answer is no, it was exiled, but you didn't exile it. So deja vu doesn't work. Deja vu also therefore wouldn't work if a scenario effect exiled cards but I don't think there are any of those at the moment. — NarkasisBroon · 9